alisa
06-27 10:00 PM
Yes I agree.. But if they don't move date foward then they can't approve those backlog applications.And they don't want to loose 40,000 visas . Now when they made all date current, they can approve all those pending application which are complete and just waiting for date to become current. Now we don't know real number and don't know how long it will take USCIS to do all approvals. But if they approve 40,000 in 2 weeks, I won't be surprised if they make it 'U' like other workers.
But then question still remains why they made all current. They could have just moved it by year or so.. And I am sure they know how many application they can expect in July.. I already saw some where that we have around more then 80,000 approved perm.. All they going to apply.. And what about all whose labor just got approved fro Backlog centers?
Its making everybody confused.. But its not in our hand and we can't do anything. Best thing is to file asap and just hope for best and we are always ready for worst..
Just think if they make date 'U' in middle of july, how many member going to loose money. Each of us spent so much money this month and if nothing happens that we loose all of it.
Are you sure about 80000 PERM?
I recall seeing somewhere that for the entire 2006, there were about 6000 PERMs.
But then question still remains why they made all current. They could have just moved it by year or so.. And I am sure they know how many application they can expect in July.. I already saw some where that we have around more then 80,000 approved perm.. All they going to apply.. And what about all whose labor just got approved fro Backlog centers?
Its making everybody confused.. But its not in our hand and we can't do anything. Best thing is to file asap and just hope for best and we are always ready for worst..
Just think if they make date 'U' in middle of july, how many member going to loose money. Each of us spent so much money this month and if nothing happens that we loose all of it.
Are you sure about 80000 PERM?
I recall seeing somewhere that for the entire 2006, there were about 6000 PERMs.
wallpaper Probably the last thing you
vivid_bharti
09-04 10:54 AM
If Chrandrababu Naidu hadn't happened to AP, AP was like Bihar, Orrissa...Naxal hit & poor.
samay
07-28 04:09 PM
Hello All,
I travelled by car to Quebec-Canada and came back to US thru vermont on AP since my H4 visa stamping has expired. I was given an I-94A which has no expiry date and also is says single use. They didn't take my old I-94 and issued me a new one with no expiry date. Can any one please tell me if they had the same expirenece or should i contact the Immigrations and ask them to issues a new I-94?
I read through a couple of forums and know that all were issued an I-94 with 1 year expiry date. What is the significance of that Date? I am asking this because we cannot travel on the same AP since the AP will expire in 1 year from the date of issue and hece we cannot use the AP even though the I-94 has 1 year validity.
Hope some one can throw some light on this.I
AP's are generally issued for multiple trips. I am little confused by your question. Could you please specify why is it that you think that you cannot use the AP again.
I travelled by car to Quebec-Canada and came back to US thru vermont on AP since my H4 visa stamping has expired. I was given an I-94A which has no expiry date and also is says single use. They didn't take my old I-94 and issued me a new one with no expiry date. Can any one please tell me if they had the same expirenece or should i contact the Immigrations and ask them to issues a new I-94?
I read through a couple of forums and know that all were issued an I-94 with 1 year expiry date. What is the significance of that Date? I am asking this because we cannot travel on the same AP since the AP will expire in 1 year from the date of issue and hece we cannot use the AP even though the I-94 has 1 year validity.
Hope some one can throw some light on this.I
AP's are generally issued for multiple trips. I am little confused by your question. Could you please specify why is it that you think that you cannot use the AP again.
2011 mothers day quotes and poems
alisa
06-28 08:35 PM
June 28, 2007
USCIS: RUMORS OF EARLY VISA RETROGRESSION
Late Wednesday, rumors emerged that the USCIS may attempt to retrogress the July immigrant visa numbers early in July and reject I- 485 (adjustment of status) applications filed early in the month. USCIS has taken such action already with respect to the �other worker� visa category involving non-professional workers.
Visa availability is based on the U.S. Department of State Visa Bulletin, which is published monthly, not on a rolling basis. If USCIS cuts off visa numbers in mid-month, this would be a clear violation of Federal law and agency policy. If the USCIS were to take this arbitrary action, it would cause significant problems for applicants and employers alike.
If USCIS cuts off applications on a certain date in early July, this will most likely occur without advance warning. In that case, not all applications will be accepted for processing. Be aware that that USCIS will reject an application unless it contains certain minimum supporting documents. For I-485 applications, minimum documents include a completed medical examination and birth certificates (or secondary evidence of birth, which must meet specific USCIS requirements). Applications for dependent spouses must include a marriage certificate. We strongly recommend that I-485 applicants obtain these and other requested documents as soon as possible. Until further notice, please do not plan to travel internationally during the month of July.
We will work as hard and as diligently as possible to get I-485 applications filed quickly. This will require active cooperation by all applicants to obtain needed documents. Again, please understand that the proposed USCIS action is just rumor at this point, but if the USCIS takes such action, it will likely be without warning. Further, it is possible that there could be retroactive rejections of applications once filed. Unfortunately, this is all we know at this time. We do not know when and if any such actions will occur; we will also not know immediately which, if any, cases are rejected once they have been submitted.
The attorneys at XXXXX are shocked and disappointed that the government could take such ill-thought and arbitrary steps and we will work to fight any illegal action by the USCIS. We are continuing to monitor the USCIS� actions and will provide updates as they become available
Folks.
It might be a cruel joke that USCIS plays on us.
They can do whatever they want.
For heaven's sake, lets just accept it, and hope for the best.
USCIS: RUMORS OF EARLY VISA RETROGRESSION
Late Wednesday, rumors emerged that the USCIS may attempt to retrogress the July immigrant visa numbers early in July and reject I- 485 (adjustment of status) applications filed early in the month. USCIS has taken such action already with respect to the �other worker� visa category involving non-professional workers.
Visa availability is based on the U.S. Department of State Visa Bulletin, which is published monthly, not on a rolling basis. If USCIS cuts off visa numbers in mid-month, this would be a clear violation of Federal law and agency policy. If the USCIS were to take this arbitrary action, it would cause significant problems for applicants and employers alike.
If USCIS cuts off applications on a certain date in early July, this will most likely occur without advance warning. In that case, not all applications will be accepted for processing. Be aware that that USCIS will reject an application unless it contains certain minimum supporting documents. For I-485 applications, minimum documents include a completed medical examination and birth certificates (or secondary evidence of birth, which must meet specific USCIS requirements). Applications for dependent spouses must include a marriage certificate. We strongly recommend that I-485 applicants obtain these and other requested documents as soon as possible. Until further notice, please do not plan to travel internationally during the month of July.
We will work as hard and as diligently as possible to get I-485 applications filed quickly. This will require active cooperation by all applicants to obtain needed documents. Again, please understand that the proposed USCIS action is just rumor at this point, but if the USCIS takes such action, it will likely be without warning. Further, it is possible that there could be retroactive rejections of applications once filed. Unfortunately, this is all we know at this time. We do not know when and if any such actions will occur; we will also not know immediately which, if any, cases are rejected once they have been submitted.
The attorneys at XXXXX are shocked and disappointed that the government could take such ill-thought and arbitrary steps and we will work to fight any illegal action by the USCIS. We are continuing to monitor the USCIS� actions and will provide updates as they become available
Folks.
It might be a cruel joke that USCIS plays on us.
They can do whatever they want.
For heaven's sake, lets just accept it, and hope for the best.
more...
Raghunadh Polavarapu
07-27 02:53 PM
Yes it is 1099-INT. "Amway bosses will not inform you..?..unauthorized?"...why don't you check your own braincells. Nobody is boss of anyone. Every business owner receives a proper TAX form with all declarations every year. Neither Murthy/Khanna/ or any corporate law offices are wrong. You should talk to them explicitly before commenting.
Your sorry ass has lot of excuses. Don't open your mouth on things you don't know.
With your attitude, you will not even become millionaire in Zimbabwean dollars.:D:D:D
Your sorry ass has lot of excuses. Don't open your mouth on things you don't know.
With your attitude, you will not even become millionaire in Zimbabwean dollars.:D:D:D
chmur
02-12 11:05 PM
Some of the events in the last week seem to indicate so ??
1. Writeoff FBI namechecks pending for > 180 Days
2. Moving EB3 dates in smaller increments . Eb3 India was moved by ~3 Months
Step 1 was crucial because this will enable USCIS to approve all the applications within 'Current Dates'. Atleast now, USCIS will know pretty clearly where they stand when they move the dates (in conjunction with DOS) , unlike last June fiasco.
Step 2 ; Moving the dates in reasonable increments indicates they do not want to loose control of approval process . Lot of 2003 /04 filers got GC's in last July at the cost 2001/2002 filers . It was obviously arbitrary once they made everything current and probably depended on how eager an officer was to grab those visa numbers for his /her cases. USCIS lost control over the process.
Regarding EB2 heart burn - Blame it on substitute filers, obviously most of the line breakers would have used EB2 rather than EB3. But I think eventually EB2 will get higher priority and move faster then EB3 once the Unused numbers from others categories gets distributed after June /July. Calm your nerves.
I only wish if they had streamlined the process in this fashion about 3-4 years back . We would have not lost 200,000 visas and most of the dates would have been current or at the most 2 years behind. Very reasonable.
Am I dreaming....has USCIS got it's act together??
I forget , IV was not around 3-4 years back.
But we cannot be too enthusiastic about these good news because unless those 200,000 numbers are recaptured the dates will soon get struck in near future .
1. Writeoff FBI namechecks pending for > 180 Days
2. Moving EB3 dates in smaller increments . Eb3 India was moved by ~3 Months
Step 1 was crucial because this will enable USCIS to approve all the applications within 'Current Dates'. Atleast now, USCIS will know pretty clearly where they stand when they move the dates (in conjunction with DOS) , unlike last June fiasco.
Step 2 ; Moving the dates in reasonable increments indicates they do not want to loose control of approval process . Lot of 2003 /04 filers got GC's in last July at the cost 2001/2002 filers . It was obviously arbitrary once they made everything current and probably depended on how eager an officer was to grab those visa numbers for his /her cases. USCIS lost control over the process.
Regarding EB2 heart burn - Blame it on substitute filers, obviously most of the line breakers would have used EB2 rather than EB3. But I think eventually EB2 will get higher priority and move faster then EB3 once the Unused numbers from others categories gets distributed after June /July. Calm your nerves.
I only wish if they had streamlined the process in this fashion about 3-4 years back . We would have not lost 200,000 visas and most of the dates would have been current or at the most 2 years behind. Very reasonable.
Am I dreaming....has USCIS got it's act together??
I forget , IV was not around 3-4 years back.
But we cannot be too enthusiastic about these good news because unless those 200,000 numbers are recaptured the dates will soon get struck in near future .
more...
tikka
07-03 11:40 PM
http://digg.com/politics/Rep_Lofgren_Issues_Statement_on_Updated_Visa_Bulle tin - 229 DIGS
http://digg.com/politics/U_S_Withdraws_Offer_of_60_000_Job_Based_Visas_Ange ring_Immigration_Lawyer/who 40 DIGS
http://digg.com/politics/USCIS_Visa_scandal - 31 DIGS
http://digg.com/politics/U_S_Withdraws_Offer_of_60_000_Job_Based_Visas_Ange ring_Immigration_Lawyer/who 40 DIGS
http://digg.com/politics/USCIS_Visa_scandal - 31 DIGS
2010 I love you Mamacitas.
pappu
07-04 12:12 PM
Thanks you everyone and taking a lead on this thread. we must try to get a lot of media coverage on this issue.
more...
ilwaiting
10-05 09:03 AM
Check this out. http://www.notcanada.com/
hair Since I am his daughter
LostInGCProcess
09-21 12:23 AM
Thanks for vounterring your time and helping the immigrant community out -
My question -
EB3-India
PD: Dec 2004
I-140 approved.
I-485 applied: July 2007
EAD and AP approved
I recently quit my job and have been out of work for 2+ months, looking to get on to another job on EAD now.
1. Are there any risks to my AOS application with I not being employed for 2-4 months? I-140 petition is approved, worked at my last employer for more than 180 days from my date of I-485 filing. Left my last employer on good terms, I-140 petition will not be revoked.
2. As for the new job, would getting a new job on contract (possibly a 12 month contract with a Fortune 50 company) be a problem? I was under the impression that one needs full time employment but wanted to clarify since the contracting vendor is willing to hire me for the 12 month term on W2 and was wondering if that would be sufficient. What kind of Employment Verification Letter may I have to produce incase I get an RFE for the same during this time period.
I would really appreciate your input. Thanks!
Please let me know what reply you got for this inquiry.
My question -
EB3-India
PD: Dec 2004
I-140 approved.
I-485 applied: July 2007
EAD and AP approved
I recently quit my job and have been out of work for 2+ months, looking to get on to another job on EAD now.
1. Are there any risks to my AOS application with I not being employed for 2-4 months? I-140 petition is approved, worked at my last employer for more than 180 days from my date of I-485 filing. Left my last employer on good terms, I-140 petition will not be revoked.
2. As for the new job, would getting a new job on contract (possibly a 12 month contract with a Fortune 50 company) be a problem? I was under the impression that one needs full time employment but wanted to clarify since the contracting vendor is willing to hire me for the 12 month term on W2 and was wondering if that would be sufficient. What kind of Employment Verification Letter may I have to produce incase I get an RFE for the same during this time period.
I would really appreciate your input. Thanks!
Please let me know what reply you got for this inquiry.
more...
bestia
02-16 04:40 AM
Guys, let's straigthen one thing out. I have heard here things like "flooded the market" or "why 90% of company are people of certain nationality". Well.. It's a very natural process, and it happened, happens, and will happen, and it's normal. Look at this scenario. Not to touch any nation, I would use Krakozhia as example.
Suppose you are from Krakozhia, you are pursuing American Dream, you found clients, you secured some funds and you are ready to open up a business and do something. Now you need people, you have two places to look up: American or foreign. Looking employee in the US is extremely expensive and risky business. 4 out 5 candidates will have no clue what's written in their resumes, will not want to work for you, will chill 2-3 months until you fire them, will be doing only one thing - sending resumes for a new job with better salary. Trying to hire Americans without good HR will lead your business to the dead end.
So you will look into foreign market. Where? Are you gonna go to China/Russia/India? Where you don't speak their language? Don't know local specifics? Of course you will go to your "Krakozhia", where you know people, where you know universities, and what kinda people graduate from where. So you will build a team and bring here - start working. Here is another fact - about 80% of jobs in the US people get through references. Yes, companies prefer to hire friends of employees, because they don't have to spend resources filtering people from the street. "Are you sure he is a right guy for the job?" - that's it, the guy gets hired. So, your first team will bring their friends/relatives - all "Krakozhians". And from the business point of view - it's the best way. It's not racism, not discrimination, not invasion - just business. You are just doing what is best for your business... business doesn't have races or ethnics groups. And btw, CEO is REQUIRED BY LAW to maximize profits. If hiring foreigner will be more profitable, then you are required in front of your shareholders to do so.
Only when the company will grow large, have good HR - then the company can afford hiring everybody from everywhere. And US government knows and accepts that, and it's happened in the US history many times. 100/200 years ago there were Irish, German shops. 80 years ago there were Italian shops. Nothing horrible happened, they all eventually melted. I don't see anything wrong that there are Indian or Jewish, or Russian shops. They will eventually melt in and become regular American companies.
Suppose you are from Krakozhia, you are pursuing American Dream, you found clients, you secured some funds and you are ready to open up a business and do something. Now you need people, you have two places to look up: American or foreign. Looking employee in the US is extremely expensive and risky business. 4 out 5 candidates will have no clue what's written in their resumes, will not want to work for you, will chill 2-3 months until you fire them, will be doing only one thing - sending resumes for a new job with better salary. Trying to hire Americans without good HR will lead your business to the dead end.
So you will look into foreign market. Where? Are you gonna go to China/Russia/India? Where you don't speak their language? Don't know local specifics? Of course you will go to your "Krakozhia", where you know people, where you know universities, and what kinda people graduate from where. So you will build a team and bring here - start working. Here is another fact - about 80% of jobs in the US people get through references. Yes, companies prefer to hire friends of employees, because they don't have to spend resources filtering people from the street. "Are you sure he is a right guy for the job?" - that's it, the guy gets hired. So, your first team will bring their friends/relatives - all "Krakozhians". And from the business point of view - it's the best way. It's not racism, not discrimination, not invasion - just business. You are just doing what is best for your business... business doesn't have races or ethnics groups. And btw, CEO is REQUIRED BY LAW to maximize profits. If hiring foreigner will be more profitable, then you are required in front of your shareholders to do so.
Only when the company will grow large, have good HR - then the company can afford hiring everybody from everywhere. And US government knows and accepts that, and it's happened in the US history many times. 100/200 years ago there were Irish, German shops. 80 years ago there were Italian shops. Nothing horrible happened, they all eventually melted. I don't see anything wrong that there are Indian or Jewish, or Russian shops. They will eventually melt in and become regular American companies.
hot quot;After you,quot; he told her, quot;I
srikondoji
06-26 02:17 PM
That was an attempt to get an award for a fancy rumour.
Yes, you can laugh.:D
Is this a joke..let me know if i can laugh at this one.
Yes, you can laugh.:D
Is this a joke..let me know if i can laugh at this one.
more...
house That#39;s what I#39;ve thought over
Rb_newsletter
01-15 04:08 PM
I agree Teddykoochu.
Think what will happen if they woke up one fine morning and start another new interpretation of an existing law and then later they start doing it retroactively; just imagine the cascading effect.
It does not matter which side of the ship is taking fire. It seems to me that people on the left side of the boat are happy that the firing is only on the right side, forgetting it is the ship as a whole which is taking fire.
This only reminds me of the famous poem by Martin Niem�ller which goes like this.
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out�because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out�because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out�because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me�and there was no one left to speak out."
To get the gravity of the situation, substitute it with which ever suits you ! EAD/consulting H1/direct H1/AOS pending/485 not filed/EB3/2/1....etc etc.. Behind all these fancy terms, numbers and notations there are people, children and families who are going thru difficult situations.
I don't have words to appreciate you. You explained it in one poem very very very well.
Earlier they asked for ridiculous documents like photos with American colleagues, etc.
Then they asked for client contract for 3 years, where no client sign a contract for more than 6 months in this uncertain world.
Then they asked for work place fire safety approval docs.
Then they sent contractors for work site visit.
then 221g slips, PIMS delay, admin processing, technology alert, rfe for no reasons, H1-b extension for 3 months, back dated denial of H1,........
Now they want to define the way of business practice.
Later...only they know what they are going to do.
Think what will happen if they woke up one fine morning and start another new interpretation of an existing law and then later they start doing it retroactively; just imagine the cascading effect.
It does not matter which side of the ship is taking fire. It seems to me that people on the left side of the boat are happy that the firing is only on the right side, forgetting it is the ship as a whole which is taking fire.
This only reminds me of the famous poem by Martin Niem�ller which goes like this.
"First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out�because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out�because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out�because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me�and there was no one left to speak out."
To get the gravity of the situation, substitute it with which ever suits you ! EAD/consulting H1/direct H1/AOS pending/485 not filed/EB3/2/1....etc etc.. Behind all these fancy terms, numbers and notations there are people, children and families who are going thru difficult situations.
I don't have words to appreciate you. You explained it in one poem very very very well.
Earlier they asked for ridiculous documents like photos with American colleagues, etc.
Then they asked for client contract for 3 years, where no client sign a contract for more than 6 months in this uncertain world.
Then they asked for work place fire safety approval docs.
Then they sent contractors for work site visit.
then 221g slips, PIMS delay, admin processing, technology alert, rfe for no reasons, H1-b extension for 3 months, back dated denial of H1,........
Now they want to define the way of business practice.
Later...only they know what they are going to do.
tattoo When you start out as a
snathan
08-17 12:40 PM
It is not about being treated special. First thing - if you do not go through unnecessary inspection "Does not mean it is special treatment" Lets get the slavery mentality out of us.
SRK is a visitor to the country and can vouch for himself and not for everyone sitting in that room.
I am not talking about what SRK is doing. How many time TOI and indian media reported about this. When you were struck at Atlant in 2004 did they report...? no. Did Indian minister condomn that ? no. Why...if the system is absurd...its absurd for everyone or only for SRK?
SRK is a visitor to the country and can vouch for himself and not for everyone sitting in that room.
I am not talking about what SRK is doing. How many time TOI and indian media reported about this. When you were struck at Atlant in 2004 did they report...? no. Did Indian minister condomn that ? no. Why...if the system is absurd...its absurd for everyone or only for SRK?
more...
pictures if you#39;re new around here,
.jpg "I keep telling my daughter,my")
franklin
02-13 01:42 PM
immigration-law.com posted country wise EB visa allocation for the year of 2005. For example, Nepal used only 70 EB3 visas. Whereas country limit is 7%. In that case how EB3 Nepal is retrogressed?
Can we sue USCIS? Let's discuss.
In that case, let's hire an attorney.
There is no such thing as EB3 Nepal, which I'm sure you know. In EB3 ROW, this includes everyone else. I'm sure there are some significant numbers from the UK, Germany, Australian (although they might be separate under E3... not sure), Japan, Tawian.... etc etc the list goes on.
EB3 ROW doesn't just mean those from tiny countries with tiny populations
Can we sue USCIS? Let's discuss.
In that case, let's hire an attorney.
There is no such thing as EB3 Nepal, which I'm sure you know. In EB3 ROW, this includes everyone else. I'm sure there are some significant numbers from the UK, Germany, Australian (although they might be separate under E3... not sure), Japan, Tawian.... etc etc the list goes on.
EB3 ROW doesn't just mean those from tiny countries with tiny populations
dresses My daughter would probably
manderson
02-13 11:30 AM
If I am not mistaken I believe Rajiv Khanna already filed such a lawsuit some years ago and lost.
Which makes me agree with walking_dude. With the new NC>180 rule, we can get pretty good momentum by recapturing lost visas and if possible by also increasing country caps and a increase of EB visas from 2009 onwards.
Which makes me agree with walking_dude. With the new NC>180 rule, we can get pretty good momentum by recapturing lost visas and if possible by also increasing country caps and a increase of EB visas from 2009 onwards.
more...
makeup I have a few GREAT quotes that
Rohan99
07-22 12:30 PM
Teddy ... I like your calculation and read all your posting on Calculation thread. This is a fun thread to relax. So don't take it seriously.
If I was bad person then I will try to derail the good thread.
Folks and friends some really nice knowledge sharing is happening here it�s a good discussion. The OP here is a completely fake person and is enjoying at our expense, he has nothing to do with legal immigration just getting pleasure here by instigating us.
If I was bad person then I will try to derail the good thread.
Folks and friends some really nice knowledge sharing is happening here it�s a good discussion. The OP here is a completely fake person and is enjoying at our expense, he has nothing to do with legal immigration just getting pleasure here by instigating us.
girlfriend present you love most is
amslonewolf
04-28 07:14 PM
http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eoDetails?rrid=114132
It cannot get more official than this. Please note, that this still needs to be published in the federal register.
It cannot get more official than this. Please note, that this still needs to be published in the federal register.
hairstyles Yes I
file485
02-06 12:55 PM
for the cases in pipeline nothing can be done..they r just saved...but now atleast people will step back to buy LCs approved...and consulting companies wont file file LCs in the hundreds...
USCIS dint know about the desi consulting companies r the kind 'if we give them place at the feet...they r ready to cut the throat...!'
they shud have done it long ago...Anyway better late than never....!!
USCIS dint know about the desi consulting companies r the kind 'if we give them place at the feet...they r ready to cut the throat...!'
they shud have done it long ago...Anyway better late than never....!!
snathan
01-14 01:47 PM
My friend works for Deloitte & Touche and they charge $550/hr and he gets $75/hr.. so what? And he is USC.
Do you know the rates top consulting company charges? they normally starts from $400/hr+ in Accenture, PWC, KPMG, E&Y Etc and their employee's do not get paid more than 20%. Its a practice around the world.
But the difference here is the LCA says their salary as 55K.
Do you know the rates top consulting company charges? they normally starts from $400/hr+ in Accenture, PWC, KPMG, E&Y Etc and their employee's do not get paid more than 20%. Its a practice around the world.
But the difference here is the LCA says their salary as 55K.
Macaca
07-04 11:04 AM
Please post good reliable estimate of cost for applying with ALL possible break ups. I know the following only!
Cost of applying = application fee ($795 ??) + Lawyer fee + others (= medical + pictures + ...)
Also, which parts are lost if we have to re-apply!
Cost of applying = application fee ($795 ??) + Lawyer fee + others (= medical + pictures + ...)
Also, which parts are lost if we have to re-apply!
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