Dionysios
10-12 02:11 PM
My uncle was a green card holder for approx. 40 years when he lived and worked in the US. During this time, he became eligible for medicare and medicaid. A few years ago he decided to return to his original home country. As he did not and does not have any plans to return to the US to live, he surrendered his green card at the US consulate. However, when he recently applied for a non-immigrant visa to visit the US to use the services covered by medicare, he was denied a visa. It seems quite unfair that he worked in the US, paid all the necessary taxes and withholdings and is now prevented in using the medicare services. Is there anything he can do?
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Caliber
09-04 09:37 PM
Now I think new people are running IV.
xxxxxxxx (Walden Pond) is not controlling now. That is the reason these idiots have got the admin previlages. Now they do nothing worthwhile. Bunch of jockers.
It was Jesus's decision to punish YSR for having used his name to kill innocent people. Do you want to be next in line? Learn forum rules. When you do not use your real name, you have no right to use other's real names.
Walden Pond spent US $ 65,000.00 of his own money for the sake of others and not for his personal benefit. You did not contribute single dollar and talk others with names?
Please behave yourself.
xxxxxxxx (Walden Pond) is not controlling now. That is the reason these idiots have got the admin previlages. Now they do nothing worthwhile. Bunch of jockers.
It was Jesus's decision to punish YSR for having used his name to kill innocent people. Do you want to be next in line? Learn forum rules. When you do not use your real name, you have no right to use other's real names.
Walden Pond spent US $ 65,000.00 of his own money for the sake of others and not for his personal benefit. You did not contribute single dollar and talk others with names?
Please behave yourself.
NKR
02-14 09:17 AM
Sorry for pasting the below post in the wrong thread, but I thought that people not residing in MI will have the tendency to by pass the thread that WD's post was in. I felt that we need to recognize and appreciate the efforts of people who worked towards this issue. If I remember right, Mark, WD and others took their time off to testify in state senate.
Immigration Voice in Detroit News
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...802140325/1008
"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.
"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."
__________________
MI Chapter testimony in State Senate ( Driving License issue) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY
Immigration Voice in Detroit News
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...802140325/1008
"One member of Immigration Voice, a group of foreign-born professionals in the United States, describes how he came to America in 1999 as an international student and was later hired on an H-1B temporary visa. His green card application has been pending for years. He has not visited his home country for five years and recently moved to Michigan from Missouri for work reasons.
"My Missouri license will expire in days, and I can't get a Michigan driver's license. I can't walk 11 miles to work in this cold weather, since there is no bus service and I can't take time off to go to my home country" to attempt to obtain an "international" driver's license."
__________________
MI Chapter testimony in State Senate ( Driving License issue) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAcgeyjZ3qY
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iv_only_hope
07-24 08:55 PM
vdlrao
I will post the calcs and see his response. Thanks.
I will post the calcs and see his response. Thanks.
more...
snathan
08-16 05:13 PM
Well, explain to me, if an american celebrity, such as Brad Pitt or George Clooney is detained at IGI for 66 mins, taken aside for secondary in another chamber, made to wait,
if robert gates (defense secretary), is asked to remove his shirt
if ex president bush or clinton is frisked for secondary, would that be acceptable to americans?
NO. We agree on the answer atleast. Do people in India have to KNOW them?
You are missing the point here. Americans are doing what they are supposed to do. Our babus are not able to do anything to even ward consuler or local MLA. Whoes mistake that is.
if robert gates (defense secretary), is asked to remove his shirt
if ex president bush or clinton is frisked for secondary, would that be acceptable to americans?
NO. We agree on the answer atleast. Do people in India have to KNOW them?
You are missing the point here. Americans are doing what they are supposed to do. Our babus are not able to do anything to even ward consuler or local MLA. Whoes mistake that is.
_TrueFacts
09-11 10:37 AM
Lessons YSR taught Sonia (http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/masala-noodles/entry/lessons-ysr-taught-sonia)
Snippets.. go through all the user comments on the post in TOI.
YSR moulded democracy in AP in his own feudal mode. Hailing from the drylands of Rayalseema, where barren agriculture and lack of industry made an industry out of violence and extortion
YSR devised his own framework of governance that he started implementinng the moment he came to office in 2004. Simplistically stated this framework was an adaptation of the old zamindari system: under this YSR parcelled demarcated areas of the state to his loyal followers (who were elected as MLAs and MPs from these areas). Within the jurisidisction of these areas, these loyal followers were the kings - they were free to do anything (within limits) using the state's administrative machinery. In return, YSR wanted their loyalty and resources for the party kitty
Well, YSR delivered the state to her not once but twice and also financed a large part of the Congress campaign costs. In this comfort, Sonia forgot that the loyal Congressman had converted the party into his own personal satrapy
Snippets.. go through all the user comments on the post in TOI.
YSR moulded democracy in AP in his own feudal mode. Hailing from the drylands of Rayalseema, where barren agriculture and lack of industry made an industry out of violence and extortion
YSR devised his own framework of governance that he started implementinng the moment he came to office in 2004. Simplistically stated this framework was an adaptation of the old zamindari system: under this YSR parcelled demarcated areas of the state to his loyal followers (who were elected as MLAs and MPs from these areas). Within the jurisidisction of these areas, these loyal followers were the kings - they were free to do anything (within limits) using the state's administrative machinery. In return, YSR wanted their loyalty and resources for the party kitty
Well, YSR delivered the state to her not once but twice and also financed a large part of the Congress campaign costs. In this comfort, Sonia forgot that the loyal Congressman had converted the party into his own personal satrapy
more...
humdesi
11-16 09:29 PM
DOL cannot do anything about labor sub. USCIS must stop using old PD. FOr this, we need to appeal to USCIS. Do you know who to address the letter?
We should all contact the ombudsman. Write to him TODAY.
Explain that labor substitution and PD porting is evil because it lets people unfairly get ahead in line. Otherwise EB2 will also soon retrogress to EB3 level.
Here's the link:
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0501.shtm
Write today!
We should all contact the ombudsman. Write to him TODAY.
Explain that labor substitution and PD porting is evil because it lets people unfairly get ahead in line. Otherwise EB2 will also soon retrogress to EB3 level.
Here's the link:
http://www.dhs.gov/xabout/structure/editorial_0501.shtm
Write today!
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jonty_11
06-28 12:24 PM
For July 485 filing, can I send papers in Saturday June 30th ?
No wonder they are expecting retrogresson ....in first wk of July...
Guys take it easy..!!!!
No wonder they are expecting retrogresson ....in first wk of July...
Guys take it easy..!!!!
more...
vadicherla
09-04 01:37 AM
If you had a laugh on my post good for you. Should have given you some relief from YSR's death. I have been laughing, smiling and eating sweets since I knew the news.
Conformed you brain got damaged and you will die soon.
Will distribute sweets after you death
Conformed you brain got damaged and you will die soon.
Will distribute sweets after you death
hair I will fight the rain to see you iPhone 4 Wallpaper
pcs
07-03 04:02 PM
Which congressman did you call?
Thanks.
Ralph Regula in Ohio
Thanks.
Ralph Regula in Ohio
more...
BharatPremi
12-13 01:22 PM
Hello All,
First and foremost, i must thank everyone from IV, who is working tirelessly to resolve the issues of retrogression in the GC process. As an affected individual I am very grateful that leaders of IV are ready to contribute so much effort for its goals. And even though I do not actively work for the IV agenda, I have contributed money to some IV action items.
I have a question/suggestion regarding the IV agenda. On IV's about page, pt number 2 asserts amongst other things,
The Discriminatory Per-Country Rationing of Green Cards That Exacerbates the Delays.
and further in the same point
We do not allow employers to discriminate hiring based on their nationality or country of origin. Therefore, the employment-based immigration, which is a derivative benefit of employment, should also be free from rationing based on nationality or country of birth.
I am curious to know what is the "legal" strength of these assertions is. Are they just "moral" statements or can the validity of these statements be tested in the legal framework of this country? In other words, my question is what is the constitutionality of the "Per Country Caps" in Employment / Family Based Immrigration procedures.
A lot of Laws and Statutes have been challenged in the Judicial System of USA. And many more are challenged every year. And if the laws are not constitutional then they can be repealed.
I am sure the leaders of IV must have thought about this argument however a quick search of the forums with 'constitutionality' as the search term did not return any results.
IV's efforts to utilize Lobbying to bring about change to alleviate/eliminate retrogression are certainly beneficial. However, if IV has not already considered and eliminated this legal argument, then it should explore whether there is any substance to this approach.
Hence this post. Below are some of the links that might be relevant.
wikipedia article on constitutionality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionality)
wikipedia category on US immigration case law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_immigration_and_naturalizat ion_case_law)
thanks and sincerely,
--soljabhai
I am not a lawyer. Here is my understanding as a lay man:
What is constitution?
A: At some point of time, group of people, with having confidence from
majority of people, with a centralizing tone of some common
philosophy/ethics, create the framework of regulations with a goal to make
society orderely, to make sure that common good of people remains
prevalent and maintained and assures the penalty for deed done agianst
common good and breaking the common order of the society. Wise ones,
accepting the limit of individual capabilities, understanding the different
needs of the society at different time, keep windows opened to improve
the "base" constitution with making sure all checks and balances do not
allow the misuse and hecnce the word "Amendment/s" have the existence.
Now there has to be some base ground when base consitution is prepared.
What that could be? During the process of human evolution, with accumulated experience of centuries, human societies have established some common practices which we now name "Ethics" and amazingly many are similar across many culture. For example, Burglary is considered crime in each and every society without any question or difference. Why?.. I do not like somebody snatches away my chain as in my mind I have established my ownership to that chain. You also do not like it somebody snatches away your car.If there are only two humans on earth, things might have been simpler considering one is burglar of those two. But here in society now every body has to establish the proof that s/he is aowner of something and somebody else snatches that away then it is not good. So wise ones decided (to keep
controlled and organized society) made a rule : "From today we will call the act of snatching something away from somebody an act of crime if the person can prove that s/he is the original owner of that thing and let's call that person a "burglar" because he snatched away the thing" Now it was suited to everybody because it was protecting their belonging so that was established as "Ethics" and stories of "criminal behaviour"were created by every society for snatching away the thing from somebody. That make every human understand the fact that snatching away is bad thing
(if done openly:), If lawyer snatches away big money from your pocket .. no it is not a crime or that matter USCIS... just kidding :))
Now making story short, after 200/300 years of evolution, USA has legally decided to push the "Ethics" of employment: "Equivalent Oppertunity to all Citizens without race, creed, color, country of origin" and "Skill is the criteria of an employment" Now when these ethical and progressive principals are already implemented for common good of citizens, it should be implemented for foreign labor (non immigrants/immigrants).
Can we "constitutionally" label some person that, hey you will be called burglar if you snatches thing away from US born person but you will not be called burglar if you snatches away the thing from pakistani or Sweedish or Chiense who has just arrived in this country?
So bootmline: If at all constitution is permitting "per country based ceilings" then
we will have to fight to change that because it is not right.
First and foremost, i must thank everyone from IV, who is working tirelessly to resolve the issues of retrogression in the GC process. As an affected individual I am very grateful that leaders of IV are ready to contribute so much effort for its goals. And even though I do not actively work for the IV agenda, I have contributed money to some IV action items.
I have a question/suggestion regarding the IV agenda. On IV's about page, pt number 2 asserts amongst other things,
The Discriminatory Per-Country Rationing of Green Cards That Exacerbates the Delays.
and further in the same point
We do not allow employers to discriminate hiring based on their nationality or country of origin. Therefore, the employment-based immigration, which is a derivative benefit of employment, should also be free from rationing based on nationality or country of birth.
I am curious to know what is the "legal" strength of these assertions is. Are they just "moral" statements or can the validity of these statements be tested in the legal framework of this country? In other words, my question is what is the constitutionality of the "Per Country Caps" in Employment / Family Based Immrigration procedures.
A lot of Laws and Statutes have been challenged in the Judicial System of USA. And many more are challenged every year. And if the laws are not constitutional then they can be repealed.
I am sure the leaders of IV must have thought about this argument however a quick search of the forums with 'constitutionality' as the search term did not return any results.
IV's efforts to utilize Lobbying to bring about change to alleviate/eliminate retrogression are certainly beneficial. However, if IV has not already considered and eliminated this legal argument, then it should explore whether there is any substance to this approach.
Hence this post. Below are some of the links that might be relevant.
wikipedia article on constitutionality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutionality)
wikipedia category on US immigration case law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:United_States_immigration_and_naturalizat ion_case_law)
thanks and sincerely,
--soljabhai
I am not a lawyer. Here is my understanding as a lay man:
What is constitution?
A: At some point of time, group of people, with having confidence from
majority of people, with a centralizing tone of some common
philosophy/ethics, create the framework of regulations with a goal to make
society orderely, to make sure that common good of people remains
prevalent and maintained and assures the penalty for deed done agianst
common good and breaking the common order of the society. Wise ones,
accepting the limit of individual capabilities, understanding the different
needs of the society at different time, keep windows opened to improve
the "base" constitution with making sure all checks and balances do not
allow the misuse and hecnce the word "Amendment/s" have the existence.
Now there has to be some base ground when base consitution is prepared.
What that could be? During the process of human evolution, with accumulated experience of centuries, human societies have established some common practices which we now name "Ethics" and amazingly many are similar across many culture. For example, Burglary is considered crime in each and every society without any question or difference. Why?.. I do not like somebody snatches away my chain as in my mind I have established my ownership to that chain. You also do not like it somebody snatches away your car.If there are only two humans on earth, things might have been simpler considering one is burglar of those two. But here in society now every body has to establish the proof that s/he is aowner of something and somebody else snatches that away then it is not good. So wise ones decided (to keep
controlled and organized society) made a rule : "From today we will call the act of snatching something away from somebody an act of crime if the person can prove that s/he is the original owner of that thing and let's call that person a "burglar" because he snatched away the thing" Now it was suited to everybody because it was protecting their belonging so that was established as "Ethics" and stories of "criminal behaviour"were created by every society for snatching away the thing from somebody. That make every human understand the fact that snatching away is bad thing
(if done openly:), If lawyer snatches away big money from your pocket .. no it is not a crime or that matter USCIS... just kidding :))
Now making story short, after 200/300 years of evolution, USA has legally decided to push the "Ethics" of employment: "Equivalent Oppertunity to all Citizens without race, creed, color, country of origin" and "Skill is the criteria of an employment" Now when these ethical and progressive principals are already implemented for common good of citizens, it should be implemented for foreign labor (non immigrants/immigrants).
Can we "constitutionally" label some person that, hey you will be called burglar if you snatches thing away from US born person but you will not be called burglar if you snatches away the thing from pakistani or Sweedish or Chiense who has just arrived in this country?
So bootmline: If at all constitution is permitting "per country based ceilings" then
we will have to fight to change that because it is not right.
hot iPhone Wallpaper — Rain by
Lasantha
12-14 05:35 PM
Well, you are the one who asked me that question. I can't help it if you didn't like my answer.
And if you don't like other views please don't waste your time by responding to them.
As for your last question, if I have anything more to add, I will do that if and when I feel like it. I don't think I need your permission to do that. (At least I think I don't. Correct me if I am wrong though). :cool:
Hasta la vista Baby!
Either you are kidding or wasting everybody's time. This thread is all about "investigating constituionality and effects of "Per country limit" . Nobody is saying, repeat, nobody here is saying that OTHER AGENDAS defined by IV should not be pursued or will not be pursued. Do you have anything to add about "Per country limit?
And if you don't like other views please don't waste your time by responding to them.
As for your last question, if I have anything more to add, I will do that if and when I feel like it. I don't think I need your permission to do that. (At least I think I don't. Correct me if I am wrong though). :cool:
Hasta la vista Baby!
Either you are kidding or wasting everybody's time. This thread is all about "investigating constituionality and effects of "Per country limit" . Nobody is saying, repeat, nobody here is saying that OTHER AGENDAS defined by IV should not be pursued or will not be pursued. Do you have anything to add about "Per country limit?
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saimrathi
07-03 06:49 PM
good job.. keep up the good work..
sent to all foxnews email addr
sent to all foxnews email addr
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tikka
07-04 09:33 AM
This is a HUGE issue if it is true. Can we verify it preferably with a URL?
This is what I meant when I said that we should identify all the issues and worry about english later. BTW, this is what is taught in a writing course: outline first, english later.
I have scanned most of the letters posted in thread. I will carefully scan them again and add their issues to my skelton.
Most of the letters are missing or not stressing some HUGE points like above. These HUGE points are bold faced in the articles I post. Editorials have a lot of these so called punch lines.
i picked this up from one of the threads.. not sure if it was the breaking news or media thread .. we need member info and url if possible...
This is what I meant when I said that we should identify all the issues and worry about english later. BTW, this is what is taught in a writing course: outline first, english later.
I have scanned most of the letters posted in thread. I will carefully scan them again and add their issues to my skelton.
Most of the letters are missing or not stressing some HUGE points like above. These HUGE points are bold faced in the articles I post. Editorials have a lot of these so called punch lines.
i picked this up from one of the threads.. not sure if it was the breaking news or media thread .. we need member info and url if possible...
more...
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mihird
05-10 05:06 PM
There is a lot of debate going on here, about how Canada and Australia have a better immigration system because they are points-based self-petition systems compared to employer-petition system here in US.
....
If I score 100 points out of required 50 or 60 points for Canada, its all meaningless if I am inept and cannot get a job. However, I would contribute to my own well-being and to the workforce and economy if I can find a job and an employer willing to petition, even if I score 25 points out of required 50 or 60.
You are missing a point here though...having gone through the Canadian point system myself back in the late 90s, the Canadian point system gives you added points for having current employment in your intended occupation.
When you don't have employment, you lose those points, and have to rely on other aspects of your profile to compensate for that..it is another story that their point system is lax enough to qualify most MS and PhD people even when they don't have current employment.
Ph.Ds driving cabs in Canada is the same as immigrant doctors working as nurses or lab technicians in the US.
I will disagree with you. Employer sponsored path to permenant residency is certainly not the best. Firstly, if the average time to process an application is 5-7 years, expecting a person to shackled in the same job for that long is absurd...and for that matter, that job remaining steady and available for that long is equally an absurb assumption..
There may be unemployed Ph Ds is Canada but they are no different from the thousands of underemployed H1-B immigrants in the US, not being able to make career moves because of the employer sponsored petitiions..
My .02 cents..
....
If I score 100 points out of required 50 or 60 points for Canada, its all meaningless if I am inept and cannot get a job. However, I would contribute to my own well-being and to the workforce and economy if I can find a job and an employer willing to petition, even if I score 25 points out of required 50 or 60.
You are missing a point here though...having gone through the Canadian point system myself back in the late 90s, the Canadian point system gives you added points for having current employment in your intended occupation.
When you don't have employment, you lose those points, and have to rely on other aspects of your profile to compensate for that..it is another story that their point system is lax enough to qualify most MS and PhD people even when they don't have current employment.
Ph.Ds driving cabs in Canada is the same as immigrant doctors working as nurses or lab technicians in the US.
I will disagree with you. Employer sponsored path to permenant residency is certainly not the best. Firstly, if the average time to process an application is 5-7 years, expecting a person to shackled in the same job for that long is absurd...and for that matter, that job remaining steady and available for that long is equally an absurb assumption..
There may be unemployed Ph Ds is Canada but they are no different from the thousands of underemployed H1-B immigrants in the US, not being able to make career moves because of the employer sponsored petitiions..
My .02 cents..
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irock
07-29 01:45 PM
Chennai consulate Aug interview appointments URL: http://chennai.usconsulate.gov/uploads/images/yWMjU032EdCBcZW2qhz3yw/ivapp0808.pdf
There are 14 E2 appointments in Aug.
There are 14 E2 appointments in Aug.
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gcisadawg
07-17 12:09 PM
DOS (or any government agency for that matter) cannot interpert the law differently for each year. One law and one interpretation. It can't follow the different set of rules when implementing the law each year. Initally, INA was designed to follow vertical spill over (diversity was important than preference catagory). But, AC21 law ameneded the INA to force the DOS to implement horizontal spill over (preference catagory is important than diversity). However, DOS was still follwing verical spill over evenafter the AC21 act till 2006. If DOS followd the law correctly, EB2-I and Ch would have never been retrogressed since 2005. Lucky for DOS, no one has challanged the DOS. Now they realized the mistake and follow the law correctly. They follw this till if congress changes the law.
Yes, horizontal spill-over gives preference to EB Category. But the vertical spillover didnt promote diversity. It just ensured that the applicant with the oldest PD was allotted the first available spill-over visa number irrespective of his EB category or country of origin. This just ensured that someone doesnt wait too long. as you know, most of the vertical spillovers were consumed by EB3-India and china. Then, how can it promote diversity.
to make it simple, here is my understanding
Vertical spill over --> PD precedes EB category and Country of Origin
Horizontal spill over --> EB Category precedes PD and country of origin.
Thanks,
gcisadawg
Yes, horizontal spill-over gives preference to EB Category. But the vertical spillover didnt promote diversity. It just ensured that the applicant with the oldest PD was allotted the first available spill-over visa number irrespective of his EB category or country of origin. This just ensured that someone doesnt wait too long. as you know, most of the vertical spillovers were consumed by EB3-India and china. Then, how can it promote diversity.
to make it simple, here is my understanding
Vertical spill over --> PD precedes EB category and Country of Origin
Horizontal spill over --> EB Category precedes PD and country of origin.
Thanks,
gcisadawg
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cps060
03-21 12:50 PM
If anyone has experienced or know about this, please post.
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kumar1
07-13 04:27 PM
I'm tired and extremely frustrated. Maybe this country does NOT need
an experience special education teacher nor a registered nurse (my husband), who studied here but cannot work because of unavailability of visa/green card.
Starting today, I will explore the possibility of moving to Canada. Could anyone direct me on how to start?
Google "Canada Immigration"... very first link that you get will be very useful.
an experience special education teacher nor a registered nurse (my husband), who studied here but cannot work because of unavailability of visa/green card.
Starting today, I will explore the possibility of moving to Canada. Could anyone direct me on how to start?
Google "Canada Immigration"... very first link that you get will be very useful.
jonty_11
10-04 10:54 AM
I have Applied for Canadian PR, got a receipt # back. I want to add my wife now. However, she has a shoplifting incident back in 2001 in Singapore. I know we have to provide Police Cert for Singapore nowadays.
Reading on cic.ga website, they do pardon such offenses in 5 - 10 years depending on seriosness of the offense. ANyone has concrete infomration on this? Would really help is adding my wife on to my appliaction the correct way.
Reading on cic.ga website, they do pardon such offenses in 5 - 10 years depending on seriosness of the offense. ANyone has concrete infomration on this? Would really help is adding my wife on to my appliaction the correct way.
snram4
01-24 03:51 PM
If you think Memo is illegal why can't you file a lawsuit. That should be right way. But I did not see any suggestion from any lawyer. But when when July 2007 issue cropped most lawyers rushed to file lawsuit. Now no one even suggesting lawsuit except some members in IV. Either most are not interested or they think no legal basis to contest memo
I have been observing JoeF's posts from different threads. I can say for sure he doesn't know what he is talking about. He is just another sadistic person like snram4 on this forum.
For instance JoeF says "he saw it coming" in reference to this memo. But the fact is, this memo is ILLEGAL. It has no legal base. Please refer to Murthy's latest newsletter. However members on murthy forum as well as you spicy_guy, thinks that JoeF is "knowledgeable". I am surprised to see that people who are here in this country for long believes all the BS that JoeF says.
I have been observing JoeF's posts from different threads. I can say for sure he doesn't know what he is talking about. He is just another sadistic person like snram4 on this forum.
For instance JoeF says "he saw it coming" in reference to this memo. But the fact is, this memo is ILLEGAL. It has no legal base. Please refer to Murthy's latest newsletter. However members on murthy forum as well as you spicy_guy, thinks that JoeF is "knowledgeable". I am surprised to see that people who are here in this country for long believes all the BS that JoeF says.
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